Hear, hear!Originally Posted by wotsthecrack
Hear, hear!
................
And it was only the next day, the third, that, having read the Times exclusive, they felt able to run a more triumphant advert:
In 1953 when the Times advert was run, the A404 only existed in prototype form so they used a picture of the A409. Essentially, the 1954 A404 is the 1953 A409 with the prototype's hands and full lumed numerals.
1954 A404
The 1954 A409 has different hands to the 1953 but they are not the same as the A404's as it lacks the pointers. Both the 1953 and 1954 A409 do not have lumed numerals but lumed dots.
John
Last edited by abraxas; 22nd November 2019 at 13:44.
The hands on the A409 in the catalogue are anomalous. The ‘53 had leaf hand and the ‘54 had syringe hands, the latter as per the A404.
In 1953 when the Times advert was run, the A404 only existed in prototype form so they used a picture of the A409. Essentially, the 1954 A404 is the 1953 A409 with the prototype's hands and full lumed numerals.
1954 A404
The 1954 A409 has different hands to the 1953 but they are not the same as the A404's as it lacks the pointers. Both the 1953 and 1954 A409 do not have lumed numerals but lumed dots.
John
I was thinking about this and my concern is that the advertising above is not the only place that the watch worn by Hillary and Norgay is mentioned. The A409 designation is also mentioned in the sales receipt:
This, and the Rolex receipt were generated after the climb as a result of a request for paperwork from the RGS. However, the repeated referral to an A409 suggests that this was what they meant it to be called. The fact is that I have never seen, or seen mention, of a screwback watch with precisely the dial found on Hillary's watch in collection at The Science Museum.
I suspect the short-lived A409 went through three revisions: the (1952) pre-production design as issued to Hillary et al. then the 1953 iteration with the Art Deco numbers and leaf hands then then 1954 with different numbers and syringe hands. The first of these was never offered as a retail / series production model but the design was used for the 16j Benson badged watches from c.1953 onwards. (The differences are purely cosmetic: hands and dial layouts. The case and movement are the same— Dennison Aquatite and 1215 respectively.)
That sounds like an entirely sensible explanation. What I don't get, and I've never got, is why Smiths didn't self consciously copy the design of the watch on Everest? Rolex moving away from the 'Everest' 6098, the hands especially, makes sense because my experience is that it's bloody hard to tell the difference between the hour and the minute hand in real world use in the dial and hand configuration used on Everest (and The North Greenland Expedition). There's no denying that the Explorer absolutely nails that issue!
Agreed. My guess is that the pre-production A409 looked too similar to the A404 (the only difference is that the latter has a stepped dial). Pre-De Luxe examples do exist -- presumably dating from late 1950 / 1951 as the DL text was added early in 1952 -- but Hillary's is unique in having that extra script on the dial. I think that layout / pattern was chosen as it offered both the waterproof Dennison Aquatite case and large, radium Arabic numerals for luminous legibility.
The crazy thing is that the A409 seems to only have been in production for 2 or 3 years (1953, '4 & '5). And despite changing dial/hands after the first year it kept the same code / ref whereas the A404 remained in production from 1952 until at least 1964 (although it lost the Dennison Aquatite case for a smaller, cheaper and unsigned one plus it gained shockproofing from about 1956 onwards. Compare this with the "Antarctic" models, which remained the same yet changed code when the same minor changes changes were made: A453 in 1953 & '54 has the DA case; the A454 (1955-57) has the smaller unsigned case and the A460 (1958-60) is the same but with added shockproofing on the balance staff.
So: the short-lived A409 changes appearance (dial and hands) but not case and movement; the ubiquitous A404 (arguably the definitive Smiths wristwatch) changes case and movement but not appearance; the A453 changes case and movement but not appearance yet gets a revised name/ref at each change.
(The addition of shcokproofing I consider to be a Good Thing but I don't like it when they they started stating it on the dial; the loss of the lovely DA case with 18mm for the unsigned case with 16mm lugs is clearly a cost-saving exercise and a Bad Thing. Personally I've put a 18j "Garrard" movement in my A404 -- with overcoil and shockproofing -- a sort of "Morris Minor with a V8 engine" set up.)
Edit: it's just occurred to me that the De Luxe name might have been invented for the Hunt watches as they had at least one extra feature: special low temp lubricants. It's possible they were also better poised and timed more rigorously. The addition of the script on dial would have set them apart at a glance from standard series production / retail watches. Smiths then decided to use using De Luxe for their best watches? "We have no idea when Hillary got his watch: De Luxe is post-spring 1952 while the expedition was fully kitted by December 1952." (Barry Jones)
Last edited by Rev-O; 25th November 2019 at 12:00.
These are the first fruits from a search of the archive at Duke University of J Walter Thompson, the ad agency for Rolex. These are from contemporary internal agency newsletters.
A rep from JWT Bombay met the climbing party at their base in Kathmandu after their descent to secure endorsements, and then the Rolex dealer in Calcutta hosted a reception for them and presented them with Rolex watches.
In Toronto, the Rolex dealer displayed ‘the actual Rolex Explorer watch worn to the top of the world’.
The archivist has been extremely helpful so please be respectful in commenting on the material. There is a lot more, but this was the easiest to provide first as it was part of a batch already digitised.
If this is interesting I’ll keep going and find a better way to post links etc.
Last edited by alfat33; 26th November 2019 at 19:32.
I, for one, think that this is absolutely priceless and I’m very grateful for your efforts. Keep going please!These are the first fruits from a search of the archive at Duke University of J Walter Thompson, the ad agency for Rolex. These are from contemporary internal agency newsletters.
A rep from JWT Bombay met the climbing party at their base in Kathmandu after their descent to secure endorsements, and then the Rolex dealer in Calcutta hosted a reception for them and presented them with Rolex watches.
In Toronto, the Rolex dealer displayed ‘the actual Rolex Explorer watch worn to the top of the world’.
The archivist has been extremely helpful so please be respectful in commenting on the material. There is a lot more, but this was the easiest to provide first as it was part of a batch already digitised.
If this is interesting I’ll keep going and find a better way to post links etc.
Fascinating stuff, definitely keep it coming !
This is absolutely brilliant. Quite apart from the simple value of primary source material just for the pleasure of it, there are new avenues to be explored straight away - not least the explicit claim, in December 1953 that "The actual Rolex Explorer worn on top of the world" was on display. The mention of a ten minute short film that was designed to run with 'The Conquest of Everest' is enticing - that's a film I'd love to see! I'm delighted that my research on Peerbhoy was confirmed as that was dragged together from a dozen or so sources and was probably the shakiest part. It wasn't central, but it was just such a cool story and really gave a sense of the determination to use the event to maximum effect.
More please - especially any idea where to find the short.
And thanks, it's amazing what's out there, unnoticed underneath the reach of the web. I, for one, really appreciate your efforts.
And I have to say that it delights me more than I can explain that the Tudor in the advert on the staff Bulletin is literally identical to the one I was wearing as I read the post.
Last edited by M4tt; 27th November 2019 at 01:20.
Matt, I’m glad the material is helpful and I’ve sent you a PM.
There is a huge archive. The most easily searchable part is the newsletter archive. The newsletters were produced for JWT staff in the JWT New York office but cover events across the JWT network. In the ‘40s and ‘50s JWT was the biggest and best of the large international agencies and remains a big but diminishing player to this day as part of WPP.
This is a link to the six newsletters between the ‘40s and ‘80s that mention Rolex and Everest.
https://dukelibraries.contentdm.oclc...olex%20everest
It’s the tip of the iceberg in many ways as the original advertising material, correspondence etc. has not in general been digitised.
There is plenty to interest anyone interested in Rolex or watch advertising and I’ll put a link in a separate thread so as not to distract from Matt’s Everest research.
Great, great ad stuff Simon!
Quite amazed (but not surprised) that Rolex were still touting that they were on the top, months after the BHI letters.
Thanks Bob, glad you enjoyed it. I know you have an amazing collection of ads.
Cheers, do you have this circa 1940 Canadian one?
I remember Matt mentioning the first flight over Everest somewhere!
I think that one pre-dates JWT being appointed so I doubt it is in the archive. That said, the boxes are all in North Carolina -
quite a treasure trove no doubt.
As you might know the Beyer Museum in claims to have the Rolex OP that Hillary wore to the summit in '53.
I contacted them
Fascinatingly, the might Philipp Stahl said this (here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...ec108ac812ca28)
A good friend of mine talked with Beyer recently in Zurich
about this matter and their proof is based on 3 facts.....
1) A shown letter from Geneva saying it's a early 50-ies production.
2) The shipping hangtag that reads Hillary's address in writing.
3)The fact that Peter Hillary asked the Beyer museum to wear
this watch during his climb on Mt.Everest in 1990, thus making
it possible that both father and son wore the watch on top of
Mt.Everest, is proof enough for Beyer the watch was on the summit.
Beyer website says: "Nevertheless, it was to take over 50 years to prove
the authenticity of this watch using state-of-the-art technology." So I
asked the curator what they mean with "state-of-the-art technology", the
answer was that they went to a restauration department of a swiss museum,
and they made it possible to read the original writing on the hangtag again.
Now I'm not a great intellect but *that* is the provenance? 1.) it's an early '50s watch 2.) it has a hangtag 3.) Peter Hillary asked the museum if he could borrow it for his climb on Mt.Everest in 1990.
And that's the proof?
As Matt says (here: https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...n-Mt-Everest):
"I find the fact that its provenance is a torn scrap from an undated New Zealand parcel with Hillary's return address on it slightly less than convincing. This lack of credibility is enhanced by the slight lack of Rolex using that particular watch endlessly for advertising purposes and instead apparently consigning it to the basement of an, admittedly very nice, jewellery shop in the wrong Canton."
Well, quite.
I emailed the Beyer museum earlier this year (https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...-Everest/page5)
Dear Beyer Museum
I am hoping you can help me in my research on the Rolex wristwatch(es) owned by Sir Edmund Hillary.
Please can you you tell me more about this piece, in particular 1.) the movement serial number 2.) the date code inside the caseback and 3.) any markings or engravings that might link it with Hillary and/or Everest? Also, any details about its provenance. Is there any reason to believe it actually belonged to Hillary and, if so, it was actually worn during that historic climb?
My reasons for asking is that both Smiths and Rolex issued watches to the 1953 Hunt expedition. The Clockmakers' Museum in London (now housed in the Science Museum) has a Smiths De Luxe wristwatch given by Sir Edmund himself during that climb. Furthermore he claimed to have worn a Smiths "to the summit" -- not something he ever said for or about Rolex. So far all the facts I've found point to it being a Smiths that was the first watch to the top.
With that in mind I am keen to know more about this watch and find out the truth as to which watch(es) Hillary wore on the 1953 Expedition in general and to the summit in particular.
Please find attached a letter from Mr Winter of Rolex that appeared in the BHI's Horological Journal (October 1953; p. 651) and a scan of the paperwork that came with a Smiths De Luxe purchased in February 1954.
Many thanks
Oliver
Answer came there none.
as I said in that thread: I'd love to know more about the watch in the Beyer museum. At the moment all I see is a nice old OP bubbleback with a scrap of paper. Maybe I'm supposed to infer something from that but I'm tired of implications and associations and carefully-worded statements. I'd like to know some facts: provenance, serial number, date stamp and any engravings on the back. Until then it's just a watch.
I think we have to take that watch with a pinch of salt -- and a scrap of paper.
Thanks and a nice interesting balanced read though it travels much the same path as the OP.
As an agnostic, this is still fascinating, I am always amazed by the amount of material that can still unearthed about an event that has been researched so often. Hats off tp the OP, the enthusiasm is obvious.
That's what tends to happen when you shamelessly copy someone else's work...
Haha!
Congratulations on a fascinating and well researched post.
Interestingly the current edition of National Geographic has this advert on its inside cover.
Never let facts get in the way of a good marketing story... whilst they don’t claim that Rolex watches were worn they’re still pushing the association and implying it?
It's what they've done since 1953. And the first waterproof wristwatch etc etc
What with waiting lists and ADs retaining cards and randomised serial numbers etc I'm afraid Rolex have lost any affection or respect from me.
Their watches are good -- good, not great -- but their marketing is phenomenal and, at times, mendacious.
Still, the fanboys will queue up (literally) to get their hands on these boring, stale, mass-produced Veblen bling bracelets.
I honestly can't see how they are an option for true watch lovers though.
Amazing work, the only problem is, I've just spent 2 hours reading through it ;-)
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
As long as you are resting while reading Eddie.
Cheers,
Brian
I'm glad you enjoyed it. There will probably never be a more timely moment to establish what happened, as you produce what has to be the most complete homage to the original watch so far.
Now all we need is a case that has more Dennison and less Rolex DNA in the second generation subsecond version of the Explorer...
- - - Updated - - -
I've found that most things I write help people drift off to sleep.
No surprise?
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Ironically, it was with the US National Geographic Ascent in 1963 that Rolex finally got to the summit!Congratulations on a fascinating and well researched post.
Interestingly the current edition of National Geographic has this advert on its inside cover.
Never let facts get in the way of a good marketing story... whilst they don’t claim that Rolex watches were worn they’re still pushing the association and implying it?
What's ten years between friends?
A difference of a mere decade? Pah, let's give them both a medal!
Joint first place goes to Rolex AND Smiths (in alphabetical order).
I'm so glad Eddie has bought the rights to Smiths. I can buy and wear a new Smiths. Was it all made in-house? No, but were Rolex in 1953? (No. They were retailers who badged up other people's work, not watchmakers. Smiths made the movement and even the case was English: Dennison, from the jewellery quarter in Birmingham.)
What would be really cool would be an all-English watch: case, movement (inc. springs, jewels, oils). strap: everything. (You can buy one, of course -- see Frodsham's offerings, for example, but they cost more than I earn in a year . . . . )
I do wonder, though, whether with 3D printing if a simple 15j subsecond could be manufactured entirely in the UK. It wouldn't be cheap but could it be done for less than, say, £2k?
I digress. Top work Matt and another bump to the summit, sorry I mean top. A bump to the top. ;-)
[QUOTE=Rev-O;5261612]What's ten years between friends?
Well, it's enough time to put the first dive watch, the Enicar Seapearl 600, which also, quite coincidentally, was the watch that outperformed both the Fifty Fathoms and the Submariner in US Navy trials for a dive watch on the summit, and follow that up with a Chinese offering from Tianjin (Seagull) which is just a teeny bit ironic.
https://wornandwound.com/affordable-...-seapearl-600/
As usual, they got the wrong watch, the Everest version had weird hamster ear style lugs. If you fancy buying one be careful - Enicar had its own radium facility and so they are really quite impressively radioactive.
Seems like even the fans (and I am one myself, although not an uncritical blind follower) have accepted this
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...23723-s10.html
National Geographic wants the money...but also knows facts
I saw that advert as well. You need to read between the lines to see that they did NOT have the watch AT the top.
Like Rolex . . . .
In the link below... you want the second part, titled:
1952 Rolex Oyster Perpetual – the Everest connection
Professional Diver Nigel Band And The Unusual Rolex Sea-Dweller And Oyster Perpetual Models That Plumbed The Depths And Scaled The Heights
https://quillandpad.com/2020/11/25/p...d-the-heights/
Over the years the Everest team continued to hold regular five-yearly reunions to celebrate the event, sometimes at Pen-Y-Grwyd in Wales, where they had trained for the expedition, so Nigel Band grew up surrounded by family friends and acquaintances who were household names at the time.
On one occasion he took Tenzing Norgay’s wife into London to choose cassettes of “the latest pop music” for her family back home – Status Quo and Queen he remembers. He also recalls his mother turning up to collect him from boarding school one half-term “in a large blue Citroen estate, with Ed Hillary in the passenger seat.” This earned him considerable kudos with his incredulous classmates, but on the way home, “Ed offered to drive and promptly crashed the car while negotiating the slip road onto the M4 motorway.”
From these meetings he recalls Jan Morris (Times reporter on the 1953 expedition who very recently passed away, and James Morris at the time) giving a talk, leaning on the lectern, and intriguingly twirling her spectacles with one hand as she spoke, in stark contrast to the other members’ more formal presentations. And during a talk by Sir Edmund Hillary, one stalwart leaning over to another member and muttering “of course it wasn’t a Rolex he was wearing at the top, it was a Smiths . . . ”.
But that’s a topic for another article.
George Band rations Royal Geographical Society
This looks like a Rollie to me.
Costume jewellery. Ouch!!!
Just wanted to say thank you to M4tt and others who have posted on this thread. I found it very interesting. I bought a PRS-25 recently as a 70th birthday present for my Dad and used this thread to put together some info on the Smiths/Rolex story that inspired it. He was thrilled with the present and enjoyed reading some of the history of the brands.
One of the greatest threads ever on tz-uk
And now, a Smiths meet-up is in the offing!
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...94#post5987694
I didn't
A one percent-er.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
A nice article by a good friend that links Smiths with the first ascent of Everest. He’s no Smiths fan (or expert) by any means so it’s a great indication this is now the mainstream view.
https://www.thewristorian.com/post/w...-s-dakar-rally
Last edited by HookedSeven; 23rd April 2021 at 18:45.
"Some watches, like the Omega Speedmaster and Seiko “Pogue” have ventured into zero-g territory, while the Rolex Submariner and the Doxa SUB300 handled benthic business in the ocean depths. Heuers and Daytonas dominated racetracks. Explorer IIs went spelunking past stalactites and the humble Smiths conquered Everest. Each of these timepieces is now eternally tied to the history-making event in which it participated, and rightfully so."
Nice turn of phrase there.
Nevertheless, the statement they made was true. I am assuming this was Rolex advertising, so I would have no expectation of them to proactively advertise a different brand.
Rolex have spent nearly sixty years advertising the fact that their watches were used on the 1953 attempt without actually saying that their watches were the first on the summit.
If they had no intention to let people believe that their watches were the first on the summit, why don’t they make more of the 52 expedition?
Indeed!
Wow, an amazing read! Thanks for consolidating all that research and including the photos as well. I've been looking for an article like this for years
Cheers for bumping this thread. I completely missed this fantastic read last year.Wow, an amazing read! Thanks for consolidating all that research and including the photos as well. I've been looking for an article like this for years
What a well researched informative piece. Thank you to all involved putting it together.
Dave
Someone should point the editorial staff at QP in the direction of this thread. The latest issue features a 4 page reference guide to the Rolex Explorer which starts with the following paragraph:
"The Explorer name first appeared on a Rolex in 1953, taken to the summit of Mount Everest on the wrists of Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay, as everyone knows. Except that both of these "facts" are false - a truth we will return to."
Good start? I thought QP were finally going to reveal the Smiths connection.
The article then finishes with this paragraph:
"The Explorer name was first used by Rolex in the Thirties on a boy's size steel Oyster. Neither Hillary nor Tenzing wore an Explorer on their ascent of the world's highest mountain. Tenzing wore a Rolex bubbleback given to him by Swiss mountaineer Raymond Lambert. As for Hillary, he wore a Rolex Oyster Perpetual 6084 with a white dial, issued to him by the Royal Geographical Society. It is now in the Beyer Clock and Watch Museum in Zurich"
Ah well.
From Esquire magazine's "Big Watch Book" issue 6
Hillary did NOT wear a Rolex to the summit, he wore a . . . no, I've forgotten. The name's gone. It was on the tip of my tongue.
Wow just read this whole thread from start to the present, I’ll not say finish.
Well done M4tt splendid research and write up.
I’ve been off here for two years or more.
Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
Big business marketing is almost as full of smoke and mirrors as government policy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Hoewel het altijd een vraag zal blijven of Rolex ook letterlijk op de top was, waren de Oyster Perpetual modellen onderdeel van basisuitrusting destijds; dat staat vast."
("Although it will always remain a question whether Rolex was literally on top, the Oyster Perpetual models were part of basic equipment at the time; that's for sure.")
http://rolexpassionreport.com/5722/t...nzing-edition/
Niet "altijd". Wij hebben het antwoord.
(Not always. We have the answer.)
Last edited by Rev-O; 2nd August 2021 at 17:55.
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